Justin Gray is one of only a dozen senior instructors to Geoff Thompson in the world today. Having trained for the last 8 years, under the most sever conditions, in Geoff's infamous Animal day sessions and having emerged as European vale tudo champion he is well versed in the art of Real. With Geoff Thompson no longer teaching on the seminar circuit he has handed the mantle over to Justin (and Mathew Evans), who he considers the baton holders of Real Combat System. When you consider the fact that Geoff's instructional videos and books were voted by Black Belt Magazine as No 1 in the world for practical martial arts this is quite an honour. But one that he feels Justin is more than capable of handling. Dave Briggs, having fought at Geoff's clubs and against Geoff's instructors knows better than most the potency of this empirical and lauded system. Here he talks to Justin about his background in the martial arts, prison, sparing with Geoff Thompson and whether ending up in hospital several times after taking part in Animal Day session was all worth the effort.

D.B: hello Justin, can you tell us what was your original motivation for beginning training.

J.G: My original motivation, like many people was Bruce Lee - he was brilliant. After watching his videos, I would jump up and down throwing kicks and punches in to the air, wanting to be the next, late great. I personally think this man inspired millions of people to take up the martial arts. More significantly, the housing estate I live on is like a mini Beirut - you had to be rough and ready to survive. In my teenage years, I was always fighting and getting in to trouble. With hindsight, I was treading a very precarious path and little did I know, what fate had in store for me. After one incident very bad incident, something that I am ashamed of now, I ended up in prison and it has effected me ever since. When you are left in a police cell, and later a prison cell, for very long periods on your own to contemplate the consequences of your actions, the post fight fear is immense. During my time in Jail, I soon found that there were more opportunities for fighting on the inside then there was on the outside. There were some 60 lads on my prison wing (I was only sixteen at the time) and all of them were looking to prove that they were tough, or simply that they were not easy pickings for the bully's that are every where in institutions of this sort. One example of this was after my first night in jail - I had a fight with one lad over the communal sinks. He claimed the one I was using was his (unfortunately I did not see his name on it), so we fought over it. Situations like this happened all the time - intimidation is a big part of prison life. I saw and heard lads slashing their wrists late at night just to get off the wing, they were the weaker ones being bullied. I realised very quickly that I needed to do some type of realistic training (not just scrapping) to protect myself. Although, I am not proud of this part of my life, it happened and I can't change that, I have learned to deal with it, I've learned to live with the fact that I did something very wrong. You have to live with the consequences of your actions. Sometimes that's very hard

D.B: How did you handle the fear in prison?

J.G; I dealt with fear the only way I knew how at the time (and still do now) which was to put it (fear) into action. In my prison days, I was forced into many aggressive situations that I could not back down from; it was a sad affair having to fight because someone is trying to bully you into handing over your biscuits or shampoo. They are meagre possessions I know, but inside if you let them have the small things it is only a matter of time until they want more and more. I couldn't tolerate that so I did what I felt I had to do. I always remember that I used to shake badly (pre-fight fear) before a situation. Because I felt so scared I always tried to take the initiative and attack first just to get it over and done with. It was only years later that I learned about the stages of fear (pre-fight - in-fight - post-fight) and began to understand what it was doing to me. We should all be aware though, that if we carry around the monkey of fear on our shoulders, it will get fatter and fatter until you buckle under the strain. Therefore, the best advice is to deal with what ever is causing the fear, as soon as possible. Feel the fear and do it anyway. Geoff's fear pyramid is a great way of using your fears to help you become a stronger person. For example, you start by confronting your smallest fear, say going to the dentist and build up to facing your biggest fear, whatever that maybe. Once you have conquered these fears, then there is nothing in life you cannot do or achieve. The hardest adversary any one will ever face in life is them selves, that little voice that tells us we cannot do this or that. Our fears are a product of the negative internal voice. By facing up to our fears we break the shackles and then we're free to become what ever we want to be.

D.B: Could you give us an insight into your martial arts background and grades you currently hold?

J.G Yes - I started with the kicking art of Taekwondo, it was all I could find locally to where I lived. It was very kick orientated, but I found that kicks, certainly the high kicks were good in the dojo but no much use in a street encounter, which is what I was really interested in. The discipline from prison life helped me stick the course, and I trained hard for about four years, ultimately earning my black belt, at this time it was and still is a massive achievement for me. I was then forced to move on, (which I'll explain later) and began looking and training in other styles. Now I hold 3rd Dan, Senior Instructor in Real Self Defence for Geoff Thompson. First Dan in Combat ju-jitsu, with Dave Turton. First Dan in Taekwondo with Tom Shaughnesey. A Greco Roman and Freestyle wrestling coach with Kris Whelan (American Olympic wrestling coach) and a Brown belt in judo with Neil Adams/Wayne Lakin. I am also actively involved in Mauy-Thai with Bob Spour and Western boxing with my great friend Glenn Smith. Success has also been earned on an International level in Vale Tudo, I have won the European and British titles. In addition to this, I have survived my fair share of fights and literally hundreds of Geoff's Animal Days.

D.B: Tell us about Geoff's infamous Animal days - were they as bad as we heard?

J.G: What ever you have heard, double it and you be close to how hard they were -at times they were savage. It was an era I went through and thankfully, they do not happen as often as they used to. In Animal day you would experience all the stages of fear at once making the adrenals hit turbo drive. I think the main reasons behind animal days were two fold, the first was facing up to our fears - and believe me you felt fear as there were some very tough fighters at Geoffs club. We would be facing our opponent ready for the fight and then Geoff would give the class some advice (any would do) and we would be their having to wait for Geoff to finish his talk and all we wanted to do is get the fight on and get it over with. He would make us hold on to our fear for the vital few seconds, just as you do before you employ your pre-emptive strike - it was a nightmare. The second reason and just as important was to pressure test our techniques. There are to many people in the martial arts world who learn hundreds of techniques but never know for sure if these techniques will work in a real situation. There is nothing wrong with learning as much as you can. In fact I am a big believer in doing this but the danger occurs when you believe that because you know this move and that move and have black belts coming out of your ears that you can have a real fight in a real life or death situation. The kind of adversary you will face out on the streets today will more often than not be drugged up to their eyeballs and be on top of you in a split second carving you a new face. So pressure testing is imperative if you want to practice real self defence techniques and believe me you will be really surprised at what does and doesn't work - basic is where it's at. To me Animal days were the closest thing to having a real fight, very fear provoking. There were a few times I paid a visit to the friendly sign of the casualty department at the local hospital, but saying that I would not trade my experiences for anything. Hardship was the order of the day and I am proud to have been there and to have made some good friends in the process.

D.B: What led you to take part in the Vale Tudo fighting events?

J.G: It began when a group of us were invited to a show in Milton Keynes, we found it an enjoyable experience, and we liked what we saw. The style of fighting - the build up to the ring entrance - the winning and losing - the atmosphere and the idea of fighting for money. What also appealed to us was the mental challenge of fighting in a ring, so, Matthew, our friend Tony and myself because of our training background (with Geoff Thompson) found that the organiser offered us fights straight away on his next show. It's not what we do (Vale Tudo) because our style is 'outside the chip shop' material, whereas Vale Tudo has a lot of rules and a referee, even so when you get in the ring there's a lot of adrenaline flowing. Also, because we represent Geoff Thompson, there is a lot of expectation on us - which I can say we proudly upheld. It was also another way of pressure testing our techniques as one of the drawbacks of animal day is, because of the fear and pressure involved, opponents are not actually queuing at the door of the Dojo to take part. Therefore, we jumped at the chance to fight different people from different styles in a different arena (pressure testing).

D.B: You have had measured success in the competitive arena, could you please tell us more about this?

J.G: Yes, the first fight that I had had was against a man called James Zikic, a very tough lad. I had to give away nearly a stone in weight to fight him (my mistake). The fight went the distance, with him winning by a judge's decision, though I was very pleased with the way I fought. As I was taking many heavy shots because of the weight difference, but I could not give in, I would not tap out (you definitely get what you train for) and I think this surprised James. I also have to say James has gone on to be number one, Vale Tudo fighter in the U.K and I wish him all the best. After the promoter saw the 'heart' I fight with, he offered me a European Vale Tudo title fight, against Mathew Nicourt, from France. He looked a good fighter and my weight this time (-75kg); instinctively I knew it was going to be a tough fight. We got in the ring and had a good tear up; he was tough, resisting my submissions. In the end this fight went to a judges decision, which I claimed - Geoff and the lads came into the ring, and you could see this was team work at it's best. Therefore, I became the European Champion. The next fight I had was when Matty and me were both offered British title fights at different weights in London, this was for a promoter we did not really know, but we were being offered good money. We found out afterwards that we had been set up for this event. I did not even know who I was fighting until I saw him climb in the ring, he was over a stone heavier than I was, he had his hair gelled and was covered in baby oil. Fortunately, this did not help him as I beat him anyway. The Doctor stopped the fight after six minutes because I cut his left eye wide open with my punches - we were wearing very thin gloves. Because of that experience we learnt that it was not worth fighting Vale Tudo anymore, because, people promise much but deliver little. We figured what he wanted to do was enhance his own fighters reputations by them beating one of Geoff Thompson's senior instructors (cant blame him really). It was then that we decided to pull away from Vale Tudo because at the end of the day they were not offering what we wanted in the respect of money. We were told the same old rubbish that there is no money in it. Yet when Vale Tudo takes of - which I think it never will - then we will be paid a decent wage - but in the mean time will you fight for £50? Then you see the crowds at these events with the customers paying a good price it makes me laugh. I personally believe that Vale Tudo in Britain is not worth waiting around for; I think the only way to get anywhere is to compete abroad. However, at the time we enjoyed the challenge.

D.B: What was your training routines like for these fights?

J.G: The training for these fights was very intense; it involved many animal day sessions. It was a great learning curve preparing for these fights and in hindsight, I think we trained too hard. By this I mean we did too much heavy sparring and grappling as we all carried injuries into our fights because of the intense training we did. I remember the great Rick Young advising us to train lightly, practising techniques for most of the session, and finishing of with a light spar or grapple. We were into heavy sparring that much we did the opposite to what Rick advised and had to learn that he was right the hard way. To begin with, you have to break down all of your training and put it in to some order so that you are working different parts of your body on different days - and that's just for the weight training. We had to have our food management and supplements organised by our friend Mark Millard who did a superb job. One weeks training went like this: Monday morning was boxing with Glenn; he worked on our technique and then some heavy sparring to finish the lesson. In the afternoon, it was our weights session; we concentrated on lifting heavy weights for short reps to gain explosive power. Tuesday was grappling (striking) here we would get the Vale Tudo gloves on and start as if we were in the ring - standing to an ending, whether it was a K.O or submission. In the evening, it was again boxing, though this time it was all technique - bobbing and weaving and using the pads to look for single punch's with power. Wednesday was again weights, this time doing lightweights for maximum repetitions. Judo at Neil Adams was our evening session and what a hard one it was too, it was relentless. Thursday was our time with Geoff where we worked on anything from takedowns to pressure training - fitness was the order of the day. Friday was boxing; more full contact sparring under Glenn's watchful eye, then mid-afternoon it was our last weight session of the week - again heavy weights. The last session of the week was Judo - randori (free practice) with Wayne Lakin. As you can see from this routine that it then took the rest of the weekend to recover - and before you knew it Monday was knocking at the door and then we would do the lot again. Looking back on all this training, it is no wonder we had injuries. We trained like this for a couple of months before the fight, and then eased up about a week or so before to let the body fully recover. The weekend before the event, we concentrated on our mental focus. Like, they say 'train hard - fight easy'.

D.B: You mention Glenn - who is he?

J.G: Yes - Glenn Smith is our professional boxing coach at the Flex gym in Coventry. He is such a humble guy that he took up grappling with us (Geoff and the lads) and has recently passed his Black belt. This says a lot about him, as his hands are the most dangerous inside the boxing arena I have ever witnessed. Either of his hands is capable of the K.O, yet he was big enough to accept he was weak on the ground. He then proceeded to work hard with us and we all swapped knowledge - boxing for grappling and visa a versa. I hope soon to be able to get an interview with Glenn as he has met most of the great's - Collins - Benn - Naseem and loads of others. He will then be able to tell you more of his Army fights and the doorwork he has done - he is definitely one of the unsung hero's of the boxing world. More to come…

D.B: When and how did you become involved with Geoff - was it through working the door?

J.G: No - door work was never an option to me as when you have seen the other side of life (prison) you find all you will want to do is live your life as peaceful as you can. I love Geoff's avoidance and escape techniques; they work very well for me. Doorwork would of put myself into situations where violence was unavoidable - unfortunately; this being life, on many doors.
I'm sure Geoff's path in life and mine were meant to cross, luckily it came about from my last days of Taekwondo, because it is a semi-contact sport, I was always being told off for being too heavy handed. In the end, this led to me being told that I could no longer train with my instructor (what a stroke of luck it was considering where I am now). I did not really know where to turn next until I saw an article in the Martial Arts Illustrated magazine by Geoff Thompson and Peter Consterdine, advertising the 'British Combat Association'. I liked what I was reading as Geoff spoke about how good control in training - is a cut lip or a bloody nose, and that appealed to me. I found myself calling Geoff up, and after a chat on the phone, I was invited to train at his club in Coventry. At the first session, which I hasten to add was an Animal Day - I introduced myself to Geoff and instantly liked the way he conducted himself and the sort of person he was. The animal day was a real revelation for me as I was on my back more times than I care to remember, and I had lumps all over my head from being a punch bag. Now I know for sure that many people would have turned back to their Taekwondo training or something equally safer but for me I felt like I'd found where I needed to be, where I wanted to be. From then on, I decided that my ultimate aim was to become a senior instructor for Geoff, which is what I have achieved. Geoff said to me once that he saw many of his own raw qualities in me, which was a great lift for me, because at times you wonder whether you are doing it right or wrong. Now let me tell you that people who say defeats are not good for you must have never of fought at a decent club or decent people as for the first two years at Geoff's that is all I did was get beat. In addition, I learnt more from these experiences then winning, because I turned my weaknesses in to strengths and in the end that has made me in to the person I am today.

D.B: The question most would like to know is what's it like sparring Geoff - from standing to ground fighting?

J.G: What an exceptional experience it is to spar Geoff - standing he is the most dangerous man I have ever had the privilege of sparring because he is the master of the feint. You do not know what he is going to hit you with next, a punch or a kick/sweep, even a head-butt or knee/elbow strike anything is a possibility with Geoff and because he is a K.O professional, the fear is huge. Notice how that little word 'fear' crops up a lot of the time because to become familiar with it you have to be exposed to it. Now that's just standing, on the ground the man is equally scary, very dominating, never letting you use your own game plan - you always end up fighting Geoff's fight which unavoidably, you end up losing. He is again the master of pain, inflicting it on you at all angles, eye gouging - biting and just about everything else to cause, you pain. When you have trained with Geoff like this, other people seem just a little bit easier. The man has no weak range even being a master at psyching people out with just a look or word even before the fight begins. Geoff has a great aura about him, which is usually inspiring but a bit off-putting when he is about to hit you! Whenever we fight him, we just hope he takes it easy, as it is common knowledge that he is capable of a knock out punch with either hand or a sickening leg kick with either shin. The thing I really admire about Geoff is that he is ready to pass on every thing that he learns, he believes the way to achieve immortality is to share your knowledge and he is only to pleased to tell you the secret of his success is just plain old hard work. The man is very humble but what a great man and martial artist he is. I can honestly say as nice as Geoff is I would not like to get on the wrong side of him out on the street. I believe Geoff would take a lot of provoking to ever hit somebody but boy, would that somebody be sorry. Dave this is a very hard question to answer as sparring Geoff brings so many words to mind, awesome, frightening, exhilarating to use but a few but I hope this gives people some insight into what it's like to spar with Geoff.

D.B: So how would you say that Geoff has influenced you, not only as a martial artist, but also as a person?

J.G: Another one, where do you start - just about everything about me has changed. If you stay the course with Geoff, he moulds you into the type of person that he is. One of the biggest things that Geoff has given us is love and consideration for other people and the great belief about 'karmic debt'. This is all about what goes around comes around, and teaches us to be good sincere people. Geoff relates it to a credit card, you can spend on it all you want during the month but at the end of the month your guaranteed a statement will drop through your letterbox, and there is no avoiding having to pay the bill. Furthermore, it is the same with the good or bad you do in your life it wont escape you for long. A lot of what we have, thanks to Geoff is the ability and confidence to walk away from trouble (controlling the ego) and not resort to a 'hands on' approach. This is because we have total belief in our art, it has been tried and tested, and we know how deadly it is - simple as that. One example; body builders mainly use the gym where we train and Matthew and me could have had a situation the other day while doing our weights with a steroided up nethanderal. While changing our weights on the machine Matthew accidentally knocked in to him and apologised for this straight away; our brain dead friend turned around and gave us one of them 'you piece of shit' looks, we smiled at each other, knowing that if he took it further he would soon be drinking through a straw. Without our knowledge, this could have easily turned into a fight situation. Geoff also says, that a person's influence is very important as well and I believe that this is true. We are influenced by our friends, family, tv, newspapers etc and I am sorry to say that a lot of these influences are negative but the biggest compliment that I can give to Geoff is to say that he is one of the greatest and most positive influences in my life. Geoff's friendship is worth more than winning the lottery.

D.B: Will you tell us about your walks in the park with Geoff?

J.G: Every Tuesday morning at 6.30am, Matthew and I get Geoff to ourselves for about 3 hours - it is in this time we draw of his massive energy supplies. He feeds us with ideas and plants seeds in us (subconscious ideas) and we do all this walking around one of the most beautiful parks in Coventry, the park is always full of fresh energy and very quiet at that time of the day. We normally have the park to ourselves and it feels as though the rest of the world is still in bed and missing all of this beauty and energy (it is free as well). Geoff is a very busy man these days with time being a premium, so he gets up early to cram more into his day and I feel very privileged to be able to share this precious time with such a good friend. We usually walk and talk for about an hour about all types of subjects, training, spirituality, relationships and various other topics (some times Geoff even lets me talk for a few seconds) only joking Geoff, and then it is of to McDonalds for a cup of tea - a truly enlightening experience.

D.B: You train Judo with World champion Neil Adams - what is he like as an instructor?

J.G: Yes indeed I am very lucky to be able to train with Neil and his International lads. Neil exemplifies humility in its purest form and is very akin to legends such as Rick Young - Geoff Thompson - Dave Turnton - Bob Spour and the great Peter Consterdine. They all train - talk - teach with a passion and it certainly shows. Standing and groundwork with this man have to be experienced to be believed, Neil is the best there is in Judo, an excellent athlete. Nothing is too much trouble for this man - he makes sure you understand his techniques before moving on - a real gentleman. In the early days of our Judo training, our good friend, Wayne Lakin taught us. Wayne is another brilliant Judoka - like so many in Neil's full time centre. I do not think words alone can describe these great men; you really need to have a 'roll' with them to understand where I am coming from when - I say they are, awesome.

D.B: You are soon to take your black belt in Judo, tell us how it has helped with your fighting.

J.G: Yeah - my black belt is due November and I am training hard for it. Most people know Judo black belts are one of the most revered in the world as you have to fight hard to get one, look at most of the great martial artists around and they all posses this grade. Judo has helped us immensely with our throwing techniques and has made us tighter with our ground fighting - it forces you to be tight. If you leave an arm out with these people, you will lose it, quick, and their pinning techniques are incredible, as people should already know in ground fighting it's 'position before submission'. I would recommend Judo to anyone who wants to learn how to throw and ground fight - all in one system.

D.B: You possess a black belt with Dave Turnton in Combat Ju-Jitsu - what is his training like?

J.G: Dave is as rough as they come, the techniques we used to watch him put on his students when he was demonstrating were to say the least frightening. One thing is for sure is that he is up there with the great men I mentioned earlier. He has been there - done it - and still doing it. One thing that I have to say is that some people that can really have a fight are also the most humble men you could ever wish to meet. Another good friend Alan Charlton (self-protection association) recently held a seminar in his hometown of London - guest instructors were none other then Dave Turnton and the 'Pretty boy', Roy Shaw. Roy is the infamous bare-knuckle boxer who took on all comers in the days when men were men and is known for his fights with Lenny McLean. Now to watch him was to watch humility in action he posed for photographs and signed our books on his life story - nothing seemed too much trouble for him. If these sorts of men can be humble then mere mortals like us can do it as well.

D.B: OK Justin- what are your immediate plans regarding your future?

J.G: Well about a month ago, I was going to start competing in Vale Tudo again. As usual, I had a chat with Geoff and I realised to start competing again would be like taking a step backwards in life, going some where you have already been and where no additional benefit can be gained. What I needed was to start treading new waters, and we decided writing articles and offering my seminars to everyone would provide the mental stimulation I needed. The articles are to get Matthew and myself known and to let people know we are on the seminar circuit to spread our own exceptional fighting style. We have many opportunities open to us and we are going to explore them to the full.

D.B: Your Real self-defence Seminars - what do they consist of?

J.G: These real seminars are an accumulation of Matthew's and my own life experiences (door - prison - animal days, etc,). The first part of the seminar is focused on the art of 3 Second fighting - very comparable to Geoff's but using our own unique style. We deal with the Fence - the Strikes - Action triggers - Posturing - Ballooning - Aggressive and Submissive dialogue - Fear (pre fight - In fight and post fight). All of the techniques are clearly explained and demonstrated, leaving no one unsure of their effectiveness. In the second part, we concentrate on Submission grappling that involves street techniques; here you will learn how to finish an opponent very quickly when the fight hits the ground. Some techniques covered are Chokes - Strangles - punching - Knees - Elbows - Headbutting and the nasty ones like fish hooking, eye gouging and biting (all taught with control). The seminars are four hours long and there will be a wide range of Geoff's merchandise on sale - books and videos.
Anyone from any style can learn something from us; our techniques are very adaptable. For any information you can contact me on 07715 940067 or at realitytraining@justinsmail.com
We also hold classes in Coventry for people wishing to learn Submission grappling - so give me a call to see what we can do for you.

D.B: Is there anything that you would like to comment on or mention?

J.G: Yes I would just like to thank a few people please - Firstly, Eileen and my kids for putting up with me - Bob Sykes for printing this interview, Geoff, for everything that he has ever done for me. My good friend Tony for his inspiration - Matty, for always being there - to Lee, Hem, and all the other lads that I train with. - Glenn for our boxing skills - Neil Adams, for letting
use his gym and his expert tuition. A big Thank you to Natures Best, for their sponsorship. Mark Millard for the nutritional and training advice. Last but by no means least, Dave Briggs for taking the time to interview me. If I missed anyone then, thank you as well.