BJJ TODAY An interview by Jeremy Ta'Kody

John, you have influenced thousands of martial artists here and abroad,
and seem to have a natural affinity with teaching and instilling
exceptional analytical thinking in people from beginners, to even the
highest graded instructors. How did you discover your love of martial
arts, and what enabled you to develop the mindset that has taken you so
far?

My interest in the martial arts began before I was a teenager. Schoolyard scraps and such motivated me to read all I could about self defence; and later as a teenager, I took up wrestling, Goju Kai Karate and TKD before heading of to Asia for more full-time training.

I guess reading books by such authors as Gilbey, Smith and Draeger, really fired my imagination and eventually I just had to go and find out for myself what it was all about.
Nowadays, we all live in a 'big picture' world.

Information is abundant and easy to access. But it wasn't like that when I began training in the martial arts. Luckily for me, my father instilled in me the habit of 'big picture thinking' and so from the very outset I saw the various styles I was studying as only pieces of the puzzle and not the whole solution. That was a healthy way for me to begin. I have never been 'stuck' or 'blinkered' in my approach to training. In fact, I think I have a pathological need to stay at the cutting edge - otherwise I would probably become bored and lose interest.

So how do you maintain your interest after all this time?

Training has to be challenging. Once it's no longer challenging, it's time to look for a taller mountain! I am lucky in that I have great friends who are also great martial artists; and I think to a degree we all keep each other motivated with new ideas and training methods. Richard (Norton) for example, turns up at my place the other day with one of those Swiss Balls; he's just finished reading and learning everything he can about them and immediately starts formulating ways of relating those new ideas to martial arts training. ?

It's that kind of cross-discipline thinking that keeps things alive and moving forward for me. Richard and I feel safe trying new things, thinking outside of the boundaries and exploring new possibilities together; it is important for martial artists to surround themselves with a couple of people they can do this with.

Can relationships like that come from your student base?

Absolutely yes! Some of my best friends are also students of mine. My students also keep me honest; they are always pushing me to improve, not only as a fighter, but as an instructor and a person. My students have taught me a lot. It is very important for the martial arts instructor to come to the realization that each and every one of his students is a unique and talented individual. We are dealing with people; people just like ourselves, and as instructors we have an obligation to listen to them, read between the lines, help make their dreams come true and ultimately we must remain open to the possibility of learning from them.

Apart from your work here in Australia - do you still head overseas on a regular basis?

Yes - a couple of times per year. I've just come back from doing a seminar circuit in New Zealand; there are some great martial artists there; I'm already looking forward to returning. Wider afield, I'll be heading to the USA next month to do some training with a few buddies of mine there and also to run a couple of seminars for some schools in northern California.

May I ask who you will be training with in the states?

I'll be hitting the mat with Jean Jacques and Rigan Machado and doing some kickboxing with Pete Cunninham. If Richard is there at the same time, we'll also work out together. Some of the original Machado Black Belts and I will also get together to share ideas and training methods that we each have been experimenting with. It's a great chance for us to solve a few problems and get each other up to speed on what's going on around the place. I love those brainstorming sessions; they are loads of fun!

What, if any, do you think are the main differences between martial arts culture in the states and the culture here?

I think there are some big differences. The most noticeable to me is that the culture in the USA tends to be more one of mutual respect and positive relationships between styles and instructors. The 'tall poppy' deal is definitely more prevalent here; sadly so! This is a part of the Australian martial arts culture that needs changing. Everyone has something to offer and everyone is doing the best they can in their own way; we need to recognize this and if we have something to say about each other, then let it be positive and not a 'put down'. A positive culture begins with the instructor; it is the instructor who sets culture, not the student! Besides that, it takes a lot of energy to badmouth other people; that is energy better spent on training and improving ones school. When people want to talk ill of others, I just tell them I'm not interested; and maybe I even try to point out something positive about that person and thereby change the direction of the conversation. Let's be more positive! The Americans tend to be better at this than we are. But things will change - one person at a time!

What about the individual schools in the USA - are they different?

Across the board, I would have to say that martial arts schools are run on a more professional basis in the states. They are up-to-date on martial arts business practice and are all the more successful for it. I don't think all the American ideas will fly for all styles of martial art out here in Australia; but a lot of them will, and people who are looking to run profitable and financially successful schools should look at what they are doing. NAPMA (a USA based Professional Instructors Association now here in Australia) for example, is one good organization that offers guidance for the professional martial artist. These kinds of services allow the serious martial arts school operator to be more profitable and build a bigger student base; that in turn rewards both instructor and student alike. The instructor benefits because he can finally give up his day job and be a better instructor; the student benefits because there are more students at the school and he or she is now part of a larger and richer learning environment. With regard to martial arts business skills, the Americans are a little way ahead of us; but again, that will change!

And the training, the curriculum offered in American schools - are they ahead of us in that department as well?

No I do not think so! In fact, I think it is obvious to most people, that Australia is right up there with the worlds best. I have heard the odd silly comment about Australia being behind the rest of the world; well these comments usually come from people who are pushing their won particular agenda and are not comments based on observation. Look at the boxers, kickboxers, TKD stylists, Karateka, BJJ stylists and so forth that Australia has produced .. we have produced world class competitors in all of these disciplines and dozens more that I have neglected to mention. This is testament to our hunger, our work ethic, our tenacity and our competitive spirit. Australia is right up there with the best; do not doubt that! At the same time though, it is not to say that we don't head abroad and try to further improve our standing; we will always do that; it's part of who we are!
I also feel that in many areas, Australians are ahead of the Americans in certain areas. No-one has a monopoly on creativity, on lateral thinking; we are always coming up with new approaches to training, better ways of doing things; we are players at the 'big table' and we have a lot to offer, even at an international level. Look at what Stan Longinidis did for Australian kickboxing; at what Sam Greco did in Japan, at what Chris Haseman has done for the shootfighting and Rings scene! Why is Richard Norton asked back as the most popular instructor at the UFAF seminar in Las Vegas every year? Look at our recent TKD gold medallists; think about the pressure they must have been under and look at the results they got. These are just the tiniest sample of what we as Australians have to offer. We should be proud, still hungry, sure … but proud of our achievements.

What direction then do you think the martial arts will take over the next decade?

There are many aspects to the martial arts and I think that there will be significant shifts in many of these aspects. Firstly, I feel the 'business' aspects of running a martial arts school will improve out of sight; in the same way that the gyms of yesteryear have moved toward a newer and more effective culture today. People want results, they do not have lots of time; school owners will become more professional at marketing to and managing their student base. There will be more of a shift toward customer service and more 'products' will be made available to the public.
Secondly, there will be more emphasis placed on marketing the differences between the 'sporting aspects' and the 'self defence' aspects of the martial arts. As far as realistic self defence is concerned, schools will have to cover pre-fight tactics (for an overview I suggest people check out Geoff Thompsons ideas - www.goeffthompson.com), post-fight stand-up skills (for example: kickboxing, karate, kung fu, etc) and post-clinch grappling skills (for example: BJJ, Judo, wrestling) if they hope to offer a complete package! Anything less would simply be less than honest.
Thirdly, I believe the approach to professional fighting, particularly, the mixed martial arts or NHB events, will develop dramatically. If we look at kickboxing for example; in the 70's it was basically driven by martial artists who did a little boxing to supplement their kicking techniques; this is how it started out. Over time, it changed from this idea into the more fully integrated art-form we see today. The legwork and handwork are worked in conjunction with one another, interwoven until they are almost inseparable. The same thing will happen with 'reality fighting' or MMA training. Presently, most of these fighters are for example, people with stand-up fighting skills doing some supplementary grappling, or grapplers doing some supplementary kickboxing. This will change. Give it three to five years, these two aspects will become more fully integrated and one will not be worked to the exclusion of the other. In other words, the two aspects of striking and grappling will be interwoven to the point of becoming one inseparable identity. There will always be the specialists, ie: the pure boxer, the pure grappler, the pure kickboxer; but the biggest development will be in the area of integration. It is an exciting time!

You conduct quite a few seminars both here and overseas; can you tell us how can students of other martial arts benefit from seminars?

Seminars are of great value to all students of the martial arts, including, and possibly most especially, martial arts instructors. They are a relatively inexpensive way to keep up with what's going on at a low budget price. I have spent a lot of money over the years travelling and training overseas. Just the airfares and living expenses for the fifty or more times I have travelled abroad would add up to quite a bit. Keeping abreast of the latest training methods and techniques can be an expensive hobby, whereas the seminar can cost you fifty or one hundred dollars and you havn't even left your state; and more than likely, you'll be home in time for dinner. Why not attend seminars if the person conducting them is qualified and has something real to offer?

You were the first Australian to be graded to Blackbelt in BJJ, and one
of the original 'dirty dozen.' (First 12 non-brazilian blackbelts.) You
did this through numerous overseas training trips, and through thousands
of hours on the mat here and abroad. How do you maintain your own
abilities, and who will be the first 'home grown' Australian Machado BJJ
Blackbelt? (what is required for this grading to be achieved? Can you
award that level?)

Maintaining my own level is not what I am about .. I want to improve my level. It will always be this way. I do that by heading overseas at least once a year and getting together with my friends and training. As to who will be the first Australian-grown Machado black belt .. I cannot be totally sure. There are a few candidates for that position, and as we all know life takes it's strange twists and turns; so we will just have to wait and see. Suffice it to say that there are about 18 Machado purple belts and one brown belt currently training hard with that obvious goal in mind. I will do all that I can to give each and every one of those people every opportunity to make black belt level. I can award the grade myself, but out of courtesy, I would like to involve the Machado's in the final decision.

What are the benefits of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as compared to
Shootfighting?

Shootfighting is just a name that conveys the concept of mixing grappling with stand-up fighting skills. The quality of the Shootfighting will always depend on who is doing the teaching and what foundations they are building on. BJJ is a highly specialized style of submissionary groundfighting, so for me personally, that is my grappling base. Other instructors may teach Shootfighting with a different grappling base … it will always vary. My Shootfighting system is BJJ based for the grappling elements and kickboxing based for the stand-up elements with a decent helping of pre-fight set-up training for street applications.

You were the first westerner to compete and win gold in the Silat World
championships held in Jakarta. Can you describe your training up to that
point and explain how you managed to be accepted into such a closed door
society?

That was a while ago .. back in 1982. My training in the seven years leading up to that event and the earning of my black belt in Bakti Negara Pentjak Silat was an interesting time. Training was tough, with a lot of emphasis put on practicality. Elbows, knees, head-butts and thigh kicks were all basics, and we trained hard in those type of techniques. Long range kicking and handwork came second. There was also a fair amount of weaponry, which I had to be dragged kicking and screaming to learn, I wasn't all that interested in that part of it. I did the work though, and now, am glad of the experience. Silat was a good foundation for mebecause it gave me a great overveiw; hands feet, elbows, knees, grappling and weaponry. Jack of all trades, you might say.

Master of none?

That's exactly right! But fun though; and a great start!

Why don't you teach Silat anymore?

Well, I have moved on from being a 'rough generalist' more toward a specialist at what I do. Things are different now, people are just getting better at everything. All aspects of training are improving and evolving on almost a daily basis. That's what I am interested in now. I studied quite a few styles of Silat back in those days; and all of those instructors have helped make me who I am right now; I owe a debt of gratitude to each and every one of them.

Does martial art practice in general enable practitioners to develop
powers of the mind? Have you ever witnessed things through your travels
that defy logical / rational explanation?

I have to say that I am sceptical. I don't wish to hurt anyone's feelings but that is just the way I am. I hope to be proved wrong, but I believe in leverage, mechanics, tactics and smart training not 'the force'. I have seen strange things in the early days of my travelling but I have to say that I was more impressionable then. But, hope springs eternal huh?

Why did you write three books on Jiu Jitsu, and what can the average
reader hope to receive / achieve by buying them?

I had to write the books for several reasons. Firstly because the Machado's encouraged my to do so as I have had experience in that area. And secondly, because so many people were asking me for written material on BJJ. It had to be done, and I felt I was qualified to take the job and get it done. It was fun for me, hard work, but a great learning experience. Other friends of mine, like Richard Norton and Geoff Thompson in England (Author: Watch my Back, etc) also encouraged me to go down that path; so why not? I have had tremendous positive feedback on my books; I am very encouraged by all those letters and e-mails. Thanks you everyone, your thoughts are appreciated!

In your life who are the people that have influenced you?

I have been influenced by thousands of people, as have we all. But the special ones know who they are. They are from all walks of life and are such a diverse group of individuals that my mind still boggles at many of these extraordinary meetings. They all have one thing in common, they are positive people leading interesting lives on their own terms. Please excuse me from refraining mentioning any names.

When people have private lessons with you, do you think that they are
searching for personal guidance in their lives, or are simply looking
for improvements in ability? In this regard, what is the most important
role of a coach?

People train for a wide variety of reasons. Learning how to fight is a small part of the overall picture.
I feel the role of a coach is to provide the student with solid technical guidance in his or her chosen martial art but it often amounts to more than this. We develop close relationships with many of our students; many become lifelong friends. We help each other through good and bad times, and we share and experience each others perspectives from time to time. It is important for an instructor to know that they are dealing with people, with human beings who have thoughts and feelings just like we do. People need to be treated with great respect and assisted toward achieving their own particular goals. Sometimes it takes a while to work out what people are really looking for; it is very often different from what they tell you they are looking for. Our training is our common vehicle but there are many dynamics that go toward making the instructor/student relationship what it is. Instructors have a huge responsibility. Think about that word - responsibility - do we have the ability to respond in a professional, caring and appropriate way to the needs of the student? That is part of the great challenge!

Thank you for your thoughts … we look forward to talking to you again soon.
- Jeremy Ta'Kody: Blitz Magazine